Hi all, Well to be fair our two Cat 140Hs have been very good but today I had a special day with one of them. We had a heavy dump of snow yesterday (30cm) and the graders were in demand to windrow the streets so we could run our big blower on night shift and get things cleaned up. The operator stopped for coffee and complained the transmission light was flashing. Level was ok but then it wouldn't go into gear. He also said it cranked slow when he started it first thing. Now at this point the grader was running with trans light flashing. I had a look at it and was curious about the slow crank so I shut it off to try it myself. That was the last it ran. I tested the batteries and one was toast and other was 70% CCA. I changed the toast battery and tried again and the starter motor stuck not in the ring gear though, just motoring. Now anytime the master switch is on regardless of the key, the starter motors. So I can't start the machine. And the wing has crept down and it won't fit in the shop which is 50m away. And the moldboard is down and I can't move it unless I have pilot pressure to nuteralize the spool and lift it with a loader. And the air is bled off- I'm not too familiar with these machines but I'm thinking I need air to release the park brake? Then I got to looking at changing the starter and I would have to pull back the right side saddle fuel tank to access the starter. Not really what I wanted to do outside. It is supposed to stay around -10c here and my nice cozy shop is right there! Am I missing any easy way out or am I fixing this thing in the snowbank? It is a 2004 140H with 3176 motor.
It sounds like the the starter solenoid terminal have been welded together, probably by high amps caused by trying to crank it with low voltage. Yes, you need air to release the park brake and yes, you will need to remove a fuel tank. Don't attempt it if they're full, drain most of the fuel first then it's not too bad. There's quick disconnects for the fuel lines and crossover tube except for, from memory, a fuel line, (return?) into the fuel level sender.
Probably not HEF approved, but I would get the other grader or something with 24 V hooked up and get the batteries good and charged. What I would try next is a bit sketchy, and dangerous to some, but if it works you might be able to get it inside. The starter is most likely toast, so if it stays engaged, so be it. Remove the main cable from the solenoid, and switch the disconnect. There will probably be a couple other wires that hook on with the main cable to power everything else, so keep them all together before switching the main disconnect on. You should have power to everything else except the starter motor. Have someone hit the key and see if the solenoid clicks. It needs to for it to be able to engage starter drive. If it clicks, have him hold the key in start and hitch the main cable back onto the starter. If the engine starts cranking, hopefully it starts. If it starts, when he lets off the key, hopefully the starter disengages. If it does, and the starter motor stops spinning, you just got the last start out of it. If it doesn't disengage, take the cable back off the starter, being careful to keep the other wires together with the cable. Have some tape handy to wrap around it quick, and get it in the shop. Hopefully yourself and the other guys are capable enough to pull this off, if not, then you'll be changing a starter in the cold.
would it work if someone held the key in start position and then other person clicks on the master or would the cat electronics have a delay in energizing the solenoid , it sounds like a valid procedure for one last start shimmy just a pain in the butt to do with what sounds like very limited space . would this procedure work instead... run a jumper to the solonoid to energize it direct from the battery , have the assistant hold key in start just because and then turn on the master , if it does anything at all hopefully start let off key and pull jumper off battery . run into nice warm shop and start rippen on it ... knowing my luck either way would be a bust and i would be standing in snow changing it but i would have my truck or a generator out there running a heater at my backside
Good thoughts. And last but not least if all else fails get in there and whack the solenoid with something, maybe jar it loose to get it to start one last time.
Good ideas thanks everyone. Its not great access so how much do I fiddle diddle vs just getting at it and push through doing it outside? So is the idea to take the strap off from the solenoid to the motor and try to engage the solenoid separately? I have tried to give it a good generous few whacks with a bar and it will not flip the solenoid. Other than starting it suppose I could run the hydraulics into a bucket , make a big mess and use the loader the lift the moldboard and wing and chain them up then manually air the machine. Either way a huge fiddle diddle. Wish I didn't shut it off! It was already running just wouldn't move but I could have pushed it! Ah well...hmmm
Well that fuel tank is going to be hell outside ours fits soo very tight it takes prybars and com a longs quite a few good kicks to get it in and out when its soft and flexible in the summer heat I would do anything I could to get that starter engaged including vibrating the starter with an air hammer, warming it up with a torch, cussing at it ect And yes its a terrible design
In a predicament I have removed the solenoid entirely and shifted the drive manually and then powered up the motor. Again it depends on how dire the situation and safety is tantamount !
Might be harder that way, but yes, you can isolate the starter motor itself that way. Then, you need to get power to the terminal on the solenoid that engages it to see if it will engage the starter drive. If it does, the objective is to reconnect the power to the starter motor while keeping the drive engaged. However you can accomplish this is acceptable, as long as you get the power to the starter motor disconnected (and hopefully starter drive disengaged) AFTER the engine starts.
The real problem is access on these machines you can kinda see the starter motor before you take the fuel tank off but your not going to work on it
Typical of engineering these days. Something like servicing a starter should not entail removing other components. Personally when I saw the location of the filler neck on the M series grader I cringed.
They don't have to work on it they don't care . It's just like not being able to take a valve cover off now without having to remove the emissions module first . It really makes you wonder
In my opinion: This is a no brainier, chain up the board and wing, get shop air to it and get it inside. What is it going to take, a hour or so? No way would I fight it in those temps. with the shop 50M away!
Well I came into work to a pleasant surprise. My night cross shift had changed the starter! He started at 9pm Monday night and worked on it most of his shift but he got it done! I had very specifically noted to him that I would do it as I had other work for him and thought it would be better done at least in daylight. He said he only had to undo the large 2"? crossover hose and was able to pull it back enough to get the starter changed. Apparently the worst was the bottom back bolt which took more than an hour to do. All this in -15c! Today I finished putting in batteries and ran it without turning on the trans light. One battery was toast so maybe it upset the ECM? In any case it is back to work and our other 140H is INSIDE the shop to determine what needs to be resealed on the trans control valve body.
Thought I'd put up a pic. This is taken from the shop that I had hoped to bring the machine into. In the background is some of our fleet mostly Cat loaders. Thanks everyone for the input.