Who makes your favorite skid steer loader? Those of you keeping track at home will remember that I asked this same question last week. An unfortunate omission from the list of brand answers rendered that poll invalid, however. You can help me get the egg off my face by sharing your opinion here. [/URL] Will have results on Friday. Thanks, Larry
jcb. ah do i really have to sign up for the service just to participate in the survey? cuz thats just too much...
No you shouldn't have to. I thought that was the "everybody" link that would take you straight to the survey. Must have copied my admin link on accident. Sorry. This one should work: Click here to vote for your favorite skid steer
liugong for sure lol
LOL! I bet you will be the single vote for liugong.
doesnt cat own them? or a similar brand...
whats a liugong?
Made in China. They had some on display on ConExpo.
Results are in: Bobcat is the top skid steer brand according to the poll. But there may be some 'splainin' to do about No. 2. Oh, and thanks for voting, 928G boy. Liugong appreciates their one vote. ( A bit about Liugong ) Thanks for your help, Larry
ah, i like these results!! ...and i dont think i even voted!
The popularity vote pretty much cut down market share lines.....Except JCB. How a skid steer line with about 1% market share garners 19% I am not sure.........unless there are a lot of guys like Dave that voted on the computer for JCB but chose something else with their checkbook.
You have got to be kidding me!!! JCB is number two???????? Wow, i think KSSS is right on this one. Where is Takeuchi on this list? People really like a JCB better? I can see Bobcat at number 1 but thats about it.....
someone actually voted for liugong? I was just kidding, i thought it was funny liugong was an option. Liugong is obviously trash. I didn't even know they made skid steers In reality I voted for Bobcat, I am about as hardcore of a Bobcat guy as possible. I love my S185 and I'm looking at getting a T190 by the end of the month. I've been running Bobcat skid steers since before I could reach the pedals (literally) my grandfather's had a 632, two 743s, an 843 and an 853 over the years. I bleed white and orange. And no offense but your article shouldn't be called "contractors prefer _____ skid steers" it should be more like "random people on the internet prefer ____ skid steers" I don't remember any pre-qualification about being a contractor to vote in the poll
i like how "contractors" think they are better than everyone else. (there is this comment, and before the comment about how my skid steer usage is not valid) my experience with skid steers is arguably more legitimate than anyone on here. it may be true that people really like the jcb, but are scared of change/something new/resale value. i guarantee anyone here that if they actually took the time to learn about the jcb/tried one out/did a side by side comparison with their brand; they could not possibly come away not at least respecting the jcb. again, factoring in my local dealers, electric controls, fuel and service cost, warranty, resale value, purchase price, i'm confident a jcb would be the most cost effective machine i could purchase.
No need to get yourself worked up Dave. No one is saying Contractors are better than anyone else or that your experience is not valid. I am sure you are also correct that without a doubt, your experience is more legitimate than anyone else on here. You are again correct in suggesting that JCB's biggest issues in the past are a result of "contractors" being scared of change. I have taken the time to learn about the JCB. I have been very fair in my comments about the new series (IMO). Demo one? Sure.....buy one? Not a chance. Even if I was totally blown away by the machines performance would I lay out for one and I have already said why. I am still anxiously awaiting your announcement that your buying one (being the biggest JCB fan that doesn't own one that I have come across). I know you have to wait for a certain sized machine to release, well I look forward to hearing your thoughts when it finally arrives.
Bobcat
not only do i plan on buying a skid steer, the dream is to buy a jcb tractor. i was tooling around in a 200k john deere today, and it was no better than our 80k tractor; arguably worse. i drove a jcb tractor a few times, and was indeed blown away; its amazing how the jcb machines are so unlike and so much better than the rest. i have heard that jcb is dealing on selling/trading their sweet rear suspension componentry to deere. their tractor is what got me interested in their skid steer. kss, would you buy a jcb telescopic handler? so what about fuel savings over your big case? could amount to 16k or so on a 40k machine over 4 years. seems significant. what about safety? do you get out of your skid steer with the boom up? what about just the plain sweetness of the quiet (that no one else has) comfortable large cab? the quietness alone, to me, the operator, is worth probably 3k. i would be willing to pay 3k extra to get a quiet machine over a loud one.
KSSS - you are very incorrect.... contractors are better than everybody else.... grin! If this was a farm forum or hobby contractors weekly bulletin...but it is heavy equipment. I've spent many years in AG and how a skid steer is used in Ag is no way comparable to how a contractor would use it day to day. Unless, of course, that farmer is a contractor. There are plenty of pick ups that drive bankers to work.
OOPs... about the poll, I would agree that Bobcat has enough good to be #1. At least by contractors. There is no way JCB and Cat can come in #2. Even Cat customers hate their equipment, must be a few JCB Cat groupies.
I don't know anything about telehandlers. There is a lot of Dairy farmers here that have them, but I have no experience them or anyones telehandler. I don't know that you would see that much difference. My 465 Case has a 4.5 L engine and mulching it uses a lot of fuel but it makes alot power. However I doubt that anyones machine in a similar application would use much less if any. The TR320 uses a smaller displacement engine not sure about fuel usage. I put like 13 hours on a demo. I was doing a lot of difference jobs so it was hard to tell. However lets assume that a JCB gets a gallon an hour better than my CASE machines or anyone elses machine, if you counted the fuel usage to 2k hours you would be looking at an additional $7K over that 2000 hours. An hour a gallon is a lot, I doubt you would see that kind of improvement. I get out under the boom. I give the safety advantage to JCB without a doubt. I am not sure how many have been hurt by the boom, I have seen a few on a OSHA publication once. I think you have a greater chance of getting struck by lightening but I acknowledge that the JCB is the safest skid steer on the market. However thats not enough to make me sign on the line for one. The new CASE cab is quiet and roomy, the CAT cab is as well. I sat in the JCB cab and its nice inside. What is the decible rating in the JCB?
they say the dB rating is 76. as you know, that is really low. i have heard the m series bobcats are in the high 90s? 76 would be about the rating of interior noise on an automobile at full throttle. i like to wear hearing protection on the bobcat now but is a ridiculous inconvenience; to the point where i stopped after a few thousand hours. a new jcb for us would be around 35k. if i was spending 85k i would be more concerned about resale value. to an extent, an hour is an hour. i think some confusion here comes when people lump me in with farmers in how i use my skid steer. i will admit, most people dont even know how to drive one. abuse on ours might include logging, all the below zero unaided starts with no warm up afterward, loading liquid manure on a sidehill with the 8 foot bucket running in axle deep manure all day, busting up frozen manure all winter, driving around on silage piles, the no maintainance strategy... oil change intervals might be as high as 700 hours. grease intervals might be as high as 500 hours. other fluids might still be original with 8300 hours. etc. the dieselmax sips fuel, i would be surprised if anyone else comes close, not to mention you dont have as much aftertreatment to add maintainance cost and such; i assume no one is running a particulate trap yet on skid steers. the deere tractor took 80 gallons in 5 hours; i was not impressed.
Well as far as fuel usage these machines all use less than 5 gallons an hour. Fuel usage, although important to me, is not a game breaker just because the differences are not that great. I remember when I was on the farm our 3788 would use 5.5 gallons an hour and our 8450 would use 11 gallons pulling the same chiesel plow. Thats a huge difference. Resale is huge to me. The tracked machine I have ordered retails in the mid 70's. Being able to get into a new machine without having to start over makes a big difference. Being able to afford to trade up so that I can increase my productivity which ultimately makes me more profitable, is critical. Your zero maintainance strategy while I guess a testimony to your BC's toughness, makes no sense to me. No grease for 500 hours? surely your exagerating somewhat. Oil change intervals at 700 hours? I am sure you take better care of your tractors, why not take care of your BC? I grease the heck out of everything I own. Oil changes are at OEM recommendations. I cant afford to abuse what I have. A skid steer might be a nice to have piece of equipment for some, it provides the means to a paycheck for others....of which I am one.
you had a 3788? that is awesome. my dad has always wanted a 2+2 but i never let him get one. how did you like yours? well, not every grease interval would be 500, but i know in the early years of this machine we have now, that would have happened, cuz i never greased it, and obviously no one else did. i try to grease it every 100 hours or so these days, which seems like all the time, mainly cuz we broke a hydraulic cylinder cuz the bolt holding the pin in broke (perhaps from too much friction from lack of grease/and the oblong cylinder end probably didnt help). oil changes would be 700 back in the day, now somewhere between 300-450. i have actually been getting better at maintaining things. we run cenpeco oil in everything so i dont feel so bad about going 500 hours on an oil change on the tractors. the big one gets changed every 300 or so; the skid steer is last priority cuz it is worthless anyway. we have not had an engine failure in 25 years. it seems if you have oil and water in your engine, that is really all you need. the longest we can go without a skid steer is about 2-8 hours, depending on when it would break.
I really liked running that tractor. We got it with a couple hundred hours and put about 5K on it by the time I left. I liked the front articulation. I spent the vast majority of time with it, everything from tillage to pulling a PT Combine. They couldn't keep me out of that tractor.
Just thought I would add a little fuel (no pun intended) to the fire..... Fuel meters attached to each machine, performing the same work at full revs....I realize CNH is not represented here, just thought I would throw it out there anyway. I would sure think the new 3.2L engines would be better on fuel than the 4.5L, given that they produce similar HP numbers but less torque. Hopefully the attachment works!
Also worth noting, these were all wheeled machines in the 2600lb class rating. And to answer an above question, the JCB decible rating is 78, with our tests (with decible meters) yielding 84 for Bobcat and 91 for Deere (didn't have a Cat or NH/Case available).
Do you know what the decible rate is for the Alpha Series cabs? I am looking forward to the better fuel economy of the 3.2 over the 4.5. I am hoping that giving up almost 40 foot pounds of torque is not as noticeable. After all we like to have our cake and eat it too.
I sure don't....what is funny about the JCB is that it reads the same dB at an idle as it does full revs? All I can figure is that the low idle must just be at the right frequency to resonate in the cab just a bit? Strange. Do you have your new TV380 yet? I STILL don't have any of the new models on my lot yet...
I got the TR320. It should be on a truck now from Witchita as we speak, at least I really hope so. The stock orders on the new models started showing up here about 2 months ago. They were ordered around Feb or Mar. as I recall. They (CASE) said that the orders needed to get in early to get your machines in a timely manner. I guess they were not kidding. My dealer had to beg borrow and steal to get a build date after Oct. 1 but before Jan 1. I wanted the new machine to be a 2012 but I did not want to pay the additional costs incurred after the first of the year and I prefered not to have to run DEF.
Oh, sorry. I thought I had read somewhere you went with the 380.... Yea, mine are only stock units, but nonetheless, frustrating that it takes so long. Some of the delay was due to the availability of the EH joysticks, but I'm sure there were other factors involved.
Got word today mine will not be in Idaho until the 21st of November. Just in time to sit in my shop. There was another guy who ordered one at about the same time and his came today. I think the Enhanced High Flow is the hold up on mine. The graphics on the new 2012 machines looks nice. I think your right on the EH components that has been holding up production for sometime.
Strange indeed There are lots of things that can be done in the noise attentuation field, but I find it hard to believe that the decibel level wouldn't change if the engine revs up or the fan increases speed. Engineering marvel I tell ya :notworthy I have always liked the fit and finish of JCB products, particularly the backhoes, but as stated in other posts, though I want all of the companies making equipment to push each other to make better products for us consumers, JCB will have an extremely difficult road based on past performance. As also stated earlier, they are the clear number one worldwide in backhoe market share, but don't really register here in the US. Time will tell; remember, the US automakers hardly gave scant notice to Japanese car makers Toyota or Honda back in the 70s. I find it interesting that JCB can go from selling only about 150 units per year in the US to a full blown backlog with dealers waiting for machines. I wonder how much of the backlog is due to the branded Volvo units, or component delays such as the joysticks you mention. I do find the poll results strange as well. Makes me wonder about the true market representation of this forum. This must be where all the JCB fans hang out Have those ex-Bobcat and ex-CAT engineers fixed the issue with not being able to close the door once you get in the machine? Kind of funny thing to overlook
you mean to tell me they are putting def on skid steers already?? ...yet another reason to get a jcb. they are working on the door issue. technically, there was nothing wrong with it because it is no different than any door on any other machine with a cab, but in a skid steer i guess that doesn't fly. that is not really hard to believe the dB stay the same. who makes these joystick components anyway? i assume they all come from the same company. the jcb will be like the new takeuchis where you have an in cab adjustment for joystick sensitivity, and pattern of course.
Rexroth is who CAT and CASE use. Not sure who Deere and BC use, but other than Rexroth I cant even think of another option, although I am sure there is other options for E/H. The pattern switching options are standard in the CASE and Bobcat (not sure of Deere), in cab sensitivity and reaction is also standard in the CASE and available in the CAT if you have the AMICS package. Not sure again of Deere or BC in this area with their new machines. Dave the door was an issue. It swung so far out that you had to exit the skid steer to go get the door to close it. Most cab machines of this size you can grab the door handle without exiting the machine. The Fact that the noise level doesn't change from idle to full throttle is beyond weird. It defys logic but there must be some reason for it.
yes, it is weird, but I saw it with my own two eyes......and it wasn't that it didn't change, but that it was the same reading at idle and full throttle, which means that it started at 78, went down a few points, and then ultimately ended up at 78 again. I'm no expert on sound, but like I said, I saw it with my own two eyes. I had a video at one time, I'll see if I can find it. As far as the door issue, the claim that you have to "exit the machine" to close the door is a bit of a stretch (there I go again with those puns...). I am about 5'11', and admittedly have unusually long arms, but I can close the door by leaning up off the seat by about 4 inches, which is far from exiting the machine. Similar for other machines I have been in. Was it an oversight? Maybe, but hardly the fatal flaw that it is being made out to be. JCB is also using Rexroth, and you are correct, this is contributing to some of the delay, but it is true that they truly can't keep up with demand. I explained some of those reasons in another thread, labor being the major one. I do know that there have also been supply issues from Rexroth on drive motors as well, so I would have to think that other manufacturers are having similar pains. The Volvo branded products are a failry low percentage of what is rolling off the line at this point, but keep in mind, Savannah produces for world-wide distribution, so the US isn't the only one begging for machines.
Very well said KSSS and I am of the same philosophy.
ah well on all our tractors and combine, discbine and such, you cant reach the door from the seat; you have to reach excessively to close the door if you are in the seat. actually there r 2 things i dont like about the jcb. 1. no intermittent windshield wiper!! i actually do have a serious problem with this. does anyone else have it? cuz that is a major selling point. 2. visibility to the tires is hit or miss. another big selling point of the jcb is how easy it is to keep clean. as you can imagine, on the dairy farm, basically you cant see through any of the side windows ever. obviously, im not going to spend a half day cleaning up the skid steer (thats how long it takes); and the foot well is always full of trash making it hard to run the pedals. on a jcb just hose her down, and kick the trash in the cab out the door. done in minutes. add to the list of safety features, glass you can actually see through. you see on the farm, as far as maintainence... first of all you got me trying to service over a hundred machines and do the farming as well, dont have time to grease up the skid steer every day, and it seems to do just fine without it. when there is field work to be done, and rain coming the cost of not getting the fieldwork done far outweighs any benefit from talking the time to work on the equipment.
I am not trying to over play the door. I am 6' and found the door unacceptable to me the JCB rep apparently either tired of explaining it or just gave up, but as soon as I mentioned the oversight he was apologetic for it. Not a big thing it should be an easy fix, I am not calling the machine a POS because of it. If thats the machines only flaw I would say the machine was a huge success. I know BC has been having a hard time getting components and I hear the CASE has also. Apparently all the OEMs are moving more machines which has pressured the componenet OEMs like Rexroth to pickup production.
well there is no denying the inconvenience of the door. my solution would have been to just remove the gas strut that was on it. i am dreading another winter in the bobcat. 1000 hours of hell rather than 1000 hours of bliss.
While trying to keep my word of not making the door an issue, I will make one more comment on it and be done. Apparently JCB is seeing it as an issue ( as did I), since they are evidently fixing it. Enough said. As far as maintainence on the farm, I get it. We did not farm 100 machines big, but regardless you get in a machine at the start of the day and you grease it. We dropped the oil at 150 hour intervals. Because the reality is if you don't do maintainence the machine will let you down when you can least afford the downtime. Such as during harvest. Hard to believe that you run your operation like you say, but to each his own. I would hire someone to have everything greased and maintained if thats what it took to made sure it got done. I bet JCB is secretly hoping you dont buy one of their machines.
Dave, when are you going to come off some of that cash? By now i personally think JCB should just give you a machine! You are their best salesman of all time. If they dont at least cut you a hell of a deal it will be a crime. Please buy one already i am dying to see you laugh at all these guys or eat the biggest portion of crow ever!!! Its gotta be hard to keep defending something you dont own......
See Dave, its not only me thinking this.
+1 ditto
gee, u guys must really like me! what with watching out for me n all not wanting me to get burned/waste money and such. if worst comes to worse, once the 2 year warranty is up, we could just trade it on a case; the dealer sells both case and jcb. they say they got no trouble with resale on a jcb. ah this will not be the first time we pulled such a stunt on the farm. bak in the day we paid almost double for an irish feed mixing machine over an american one. for the first 10 years people thought we were crazy, but the second ten years we still got her and still no problems, and everyone elses american machine is long gone. and i think she will go another 10-15 years. of course with no maintenance; it runs an hour or 2 a day, we grease and oil her up about twice a year. the bottom line is i would not be happy with anything else. a case would be all fine and dandy until it got dirty, then i would be pisd right away that its uncleanable, and i would be pisd once i annihilated the plastic rear end after a few day. obviously im not going to get a new s185 cuz i have grown to hate it when putting in big days. not to mention resale on a bobcat in this area is terrible when it equipped with sjc. its true that i would not be purchasing a russian make skid steer like people make it out to be. after all it is jcb, who sells more construction equipment than case, new holland, terex, kubota, john deere, volvo, hitachi, doosan, bobcat, takeuchi, hyundai, link belt, mitsubishi, gehl, yanmar, etc. that would be handy to get a sweet deal on a new machine, but im not convinced they know i say so much good stuff about them.
Yes I don't doubt the dealer has an issue with resale value, they seldom do. Since they are only going to give you what they feel safe in doing so. You the customer is typically the one that has an issue with resale value. What makes CASE harder to clean than anything else (cant wait to hear this)? Please don't take offense, but you really don't seem like the type thats big into cleaning a machine. If you don't have time to grease anything, cleaning cant be high on the list either. What plastic are you refering to?
what plastic?? i have discussed this before. it has always been my problem with deere, new holland, and more so now case. the bottom 2 feet of the machine is steel. but the rear door is way too light. the tail lights that stick out past the steel would be broke instantly. and everything above and to the sides of the top half of the door is plastic! i really dont understand how no one has a problem with this. deeres tin rear end is even worse. we built grates that bolt over our tail lights on our bobcat and they are still always broken out. notice how the jcb has a tough rear end. it all comes down to jcb, then everyone else. its impossible to clean any skid steer but a jcb. first of all you cant see anything out of a normal skid steer, so you dont notice how the glass is always dirty so much. you see cleaning is kinda mandatory, else you literally cant see out the glass. on a jcb you hose the cab off, swipe a brush across a few times, and your done. anyone else, besides the new bobcats, u gotta remove glass and obviously that never happens. and trying to brush through the mesh does not work. the one time i did do that (remove glass) i broke a piece of glass by touching it on the ground. i dont care how dirty the rest of the machine is, just want to be able to see out the windows. then there is the foot wells. you gotta get wrenches, and other misc tools out to clean out inside your cab. i dont know about you but i get 10 gallons of trash out of the footwell when i do clean it. jcb you open the door and kick all the trash right out the side. amazing.
I would like to suggest that you open the other barn door as well when your cleaning out the manure. I think you have C02 poisoning.
I am gonna laugh until i puke when you finally (finally, in bold, italics, underline) buy a new JCB and it breaks down the first week you got it! Not saying i want you to have trouble but carma says its coming. Once again i cannot understand how somebody that doesnt own a product can over and over again brag about and defend it. You have to have written over 100 comments on these machines over a year or two period. JUST BUY ONE ALREADY! You know, i bet you bought a new Bobcat but dont want to admit it! :Banghead
this is awesome. what is equally amazing is that even with my hundreds of comments, and continuous repetition, people still always come back with comments about how the jcb is probably going to be broken down all the time. i suspect this is because everything i say makes sense, and people dont wanna admit it. realistically, any all new skid steer (like the new case and new holland), would be equally as likely to be prone to breakdowns. if you look at a jcb, there is little to go wrong with it. its such a simple design and they use the best components money can buy. i said before, when you tilt the cab, there is nothing under it (no, not literally). the bottom of the skid steer is right there. i was also one of the first to jump on the cvt transmission idea. i seem to be good at spotting good ideas. now, cvts are what all the new tractors have. im telling you, the jcb skid steer is here to stay. again, i would buy one tomorrow if my size existed. what exactly did i say that would suggest i have co2 poisoning. there is nothing i said that is not truth. i might buy another brand just so i can continually say how much i hate it.
Unless you own and operate one of these machines you have no right to comment on their use and performance. Period. In the past JCB has been weighed , measured and found wanting on more than one Occasion... Pretty much junk and everyone out in the industry knows this. The JD and CAT CTL units are going to out power the JCB by a long shot IMHO .....besides just by looking at the machine , I am here to tell you that all that glass is going to be expensive to replace when you break it and that design leads itself to allot of broken glass IMHO Signed, Owner/Operator of everything JD and most everything Kubota /CAT
i have talked to plenty of people who own the old school jcb skid steer, and are happy with them. really like the side entry. the jcb has no curved glass, so the glass should be cheaper. i dont really care how much performance the skid steer has, its a skid steer; im sure the power is sufficient. pafarmer, have you ever owned a jcb product? cuz if not that apparently disqualifies your opinion as well...
Yes, I did own one for a short time , A very short time. It was a total pile ofcrap and I will never own a JCB anything ever again........Have You ?? My short ownership experience with JCB was about 580 hours worth of lost time lost wages and plenty of headaches. I do wish them well with their new design but I am not alone in telling you that a JCB machine of any kind will never grace the apperance on one of my jobsites. I had a poor dealer and a less than acceptable machine and I was pretty much sored from them for good. The machine had major issues, the dealer is the one that made sure I never own one again.
we got a good local dealer. what is the jcb machine that you owned? did u buy it new? was it a skid steer? i have heard horror stories of bobcats with sjc, case 420s, cats engines. never heard much bad of new holland skid steers. there is a jcb in the family, but not on the dairy farm. seriously, how hard can it be to bolt together the best components you can get in your own frame for an experienced company, throw a sweet cab on and boom, u got a sweet ride... people always talk about how bad daewoo, doosan, hydra mac, scattrak, thomas, and volvo are. i would not be scared to own any of these, cuz they all are made from name brand components. im aware there is a bit more too it, but if jcb does have problems, its going to be with the electric controls, and everyone is in the same boat there. i see the local dealer has a used sv185 for sale all loaded down for 33k. hmm.
kss, wait a second. is the case rear end different than the new holland? cuz it might be better with much less plastic and more steel. i will have to take a closer look.
never posted before but i just bought a case 1845c, hope its good regards mark
Yes it is different. The CASE does not have any plastic. The NH does.
ive gone from case hand control to cat joysick and now recently discovered the joys of bobcat footcontrol and yeh i rekon it kicks conpetators ass. but hey thats what i like.
JCB is slow to market, can't argue that can you ? Really, the truth will be known when new JCB models hit the field in numbers that can measure real world useage. Until then, all of this is a mute point IMHO..........I know my Deere is a great machine and the number of them out there in users hands indicates that what I have to say about my machine and all the others in general is indeed real world facts and none just empty points of view. Hopefully, we see a few soon. I for one will make a point to find one and Demo it....Do you have any insight on when the general market will see them at dealers ?
i demod a jcb and loved it. i cant speak for long term reliability, but it has a 2 year warranty so... i dont understand y none of this counts for anything. dealers have the bigger models around. 225-330. the 205 on down will probably be around this spring realistically. i like how suddenly people r getting such a kick out of foot controls, after everyone convinced me i dont like them.
i;ve run a new holland for the past 20 years (1989) model. it was a great machine .unfortunatly i took for granted that it would last forever. all was going well till that upper radiator hose sprung a leak and it was sayanara kubota. i had just replacedall the filters and done my usual lube and cleaning. i just didn't think about that 23 year old radiator hose. yeah i know ... dumb huh? well today i purchased a four year old ghel gtl70 it's supposed to be smarter than me in as much as it should shut itself down before i can murder the engine in it.........let's hope
nottaken,thats a shame. My oldest skidloader is 1984 that I keep around the house. Lets here about the ghel and good luck
Welcome back Yanmarman..........I like yanmar machines..... :usa
we'll just have to see on the gehl it's a good machine i'm sure but the operater is really slow on this joy-stick thing....that optr being me. i retired a few years ago and really could use some u$eful way to kill some time. once i learn a bit more about this machine i'll maybe get few gigs to get me through. i've gotta get a bit more proficient at the controls cause nobody i know is gonna want to watch me learn by the hour$$$$ i could make my little new holland dance and do things some people couldn't believe but this is like having to learn all over again.
I'm new to this forum. I need some help with a ASV MD70. How do I get to someone for some help. I can't start a new thread for some reason. Cliff
what seems to be the prob? asv sposed to be a darned good machine.
I encourage you to see if you can get a skid steer to last longer at a large dairy farm with migrant workers operating it on a daily basis, than on a contractors job. Skid steers go through hell and back again on dairy farms. Im not saying contractors dont run them hard, but i think your a little in left field thinking people in ag dont use them hard. We have an LS170 that was on its way to 10,000 hours until it got retired at 9,400 to just gravy work. Those hours were accumulated in under 5 years.
Whats wrong with SCR? Some people prefer it others done, we prefer it and it works for us, other people it doesn't. If it doesn't have SCR it will be using advanced EGR, both have their ups and downs. Doesn't sound weird at all. A lot of these new engines are noisy at idle and actually quiet down throughout the powerband. Our new tractors our this way, as are the new diesel pickups and semis. The cost of maintenance is cheap. You do it in the off times, before harvest, if a tractor is 50 hours away from a service and you know youll put 100 on it during harvest, do it before hand. If you dont have time, hire somebody, it will pay for it. Preventative maintenance is cheap in the long run. That said, im not the person to advocate following the OEMs reccomendations to a Tee, they are usually underrated, but until i learn otherwise on what is safe to extend the intervals on, via oil analysis, industry professionals, and OEM reps, i follow their guide. If we didnt grease our vertical manure pump as often as we do, the oil bath would loose the seal, loose the oil, and then we need $1,500 in parts. A tube of grease is $2.50. you must live in a hole in the ground, the newer L100 series have been a nightmare.
i will avoid scr or egr for as long as possible, hopefully ten years; or until they get something better. scr especially, i will run old school if i have to. just what i need, something else to deal with; and all the added cost. if you follow your owners manual recommendations, maintenance is not cheap. you could replace an engine or tranny and be further ahead than following the recommendations in a 10,000 hour period. just changing the hydraulic fluid cost you over $1500. and who knows how much a valve adjustment, or an engine crankshaft damper would cost at the dealership... we run high hours with minimal maintenance and don't have any problems. i should prolly put together an itemized cost analysis of this... i live in bobcat country, there are few new hollands around, or few of anything but bobcats for that matter.
You need to wake up and smell the roses. Just to prove my point I ran the costs on servicing one of our older LS170s the way new holland says to. Grease every 50 hours, Oil every 100 hours, hydro and fuel filter every 500 hours, air filters every 1000 hours and coolant flush every 2000 hours. They also have many other adjustments in there that i did not include such as valve lash, but i do all of that here myself, its not hard to do. You list the crankshaft dampner as an example. A dampner for an 8.3 cummins which is a very common engine used in your beloved JCB Fastrac, older magnum tractors, older New hollan tractors, older Agco tractors, and so on. Is $140 from the Case IH Dealer. You'd have way more than that stuck in engine repair if your dampner failed. Am I saying to replace it very often? No. Just showing you the numbers on it. Back to the skid steer. Grease at 50 hours, figuring on the skid steer taking a half a tube of grease, over 10,000 hours at $3 a tube (being generous here) you would spend $300 on grease. The Pins on that skid steer are between $30 and $100 each plus their respective hardware. Over 10,000 hours, with no grease youll be replacing a lot of them. Onto the engine. Doing the oil, coolant, fuel and air all at the OEMs reccomendations comes out to $3,813 for my current costs to service that skid steers engine per the OEM reccomendations. Thats for all fluids and filters. Now I also figured out the labor on what it takes to get each service done. @$15 per hour for the guy doing the work, it would be around $600, but we all know that things dont always get done as quickly as they should and there is interruptions and such so id add a hundred or 200 to that number. So now were at $4,600 roughly for engine service for 10,000 hours, labor, fluids, filters. So how much is it going to cost us to replace that engine? Well right now the cost for a Reman long block is $6,300. Thats just for the long block, you still have all of your other miscellaneous gaskets and hardware etc. Plus the labor bill. I dont know the flat rate for engine replacement but either way, you can see that service is going to cost you less in the long run, that replacing the engine. Plus there is also the downtime factor of issues that could occur along the way. Regular maintenance happens when you fit it in throughout the week, breakdowns happen when you never want them too, so there is also the lost money from the breakdown. Now are the OEMs intervals overkill? Some are some aren't. Use oil analysis and good judgement to determine the right interval. But hey, there are many ways to skin a cat, some people prefer the no, or minimal service route and it works for them. Cheers.
None taken. You are correct about this being an internet poll. But I do these polls weekly and, with the exception of the No. 2 result on this particular one, the numbers seem to line up pretty consistently with the way you'd expect from market share and other indicators in the construction industry. I hope nobody thought I was trying to pass this off as statistically valid research. Just a conversation starter.
This poll was specifically about skid steer loaders. I'll start one about compact track loaders soon enough.
if you are going to have a problem, chances are it wont be related to your maintenance intervals. a lot of it is the luck of the draw. i have never heard of anyone's engine going because the oil was too old. you have trouble when you use the wrong oil, have no oil in the engine at all, plugged radiator, no coolant in the engine; oil pump or water pump failure, oil plug fall out, oil filter come off, forget to change water to antifreeze for the winter, etc... same with trannys, its never an oil problem. its either an idiot driving, a linkage problem, o ring or some small failure that leads to a big failure. we had 2 trannys go in 2 tractors and both of them were just out of warranty and only had about 1000 hours on them. we had one engine go once because it had no oil in it, another engine problem because there was no coolant in it. we got another tractor with 10,000 hours on it and literally have done almost no maintenance on it since it was new. change the engine oil every 500 hours or so, throw a new hydraulic filter on every few thousand hours, thats it. coolant and transmission and hydraulic fluid have never been changed. granted, we have to add some every so often... seems to me no one really uses their equipment these days. im impressed with the mining industry. when your running your machine over 50,000 hours and a new one cost a few million dollars, and your running 24-7-365, and losing big $$ when its down, then i would be more concerned about maintenance. i dont have time to figure the cost of maintenence on the big tractor, but i suspect over 10,000 hours you would be well over 20k if you followed the recommendations. you could fix an engine or tranny for a lot less, but chances are you might not have a problem anyway, the key would be to put her up for auction around 8000 hours. i have quite the strategy, i know, but it works out for me. on our skid steer, most of the pins and bushings are original with 10k hours, they just get a little loose thats all. it works good for cleaning up the uneven concrete, cuz the bucket follows the uneven terrain. sounds like im 4k ahead of the game here, since we never had a problem with it. however, on the manure spreader, i grease the auger bushings religiously (every 5 hours or less). because if i dont, i will be replacing them instantly. i never grease the rest of the spreader, but i make sure to get those 4 bushings.
You kind of contradict yourself at the end there, you said breakdowns are not related to maintenance but yet at the end you say they are? If you dont think your loosing money as a farmer when your equipment is broken, your on crack or dont farm much. but with 100 machines, you must have a lot of land to farm, or a back up for every piece of equipment. There are plenty of failures due to poor maintenance. Most of the Fendt transmissions that have failed are due to people not changing the filters. $20,000 repair bill. And dont forget resale value, when I can hand somebody a maintenance schedule showing that it has been well or overly serviced, they are much more comfortable buying it and thus the machine is worth more. Again to each their own.
it really all depends. by the way, dont bother replacing the bushings in our skid steer, the wear goes way beyond the bushings. for the record, i maintain stuff a lot more than any of the other local farmers. most farmers are just as awesome as me and dont even know it. i also maintain the chopper, because it is a high maintenance item, and problematic when it breaks. if a tractor breaks its no big deal. if i had a fendt, i would be sure to maintain that transmission. the engine i would not be concerned about. i find farmers pay excessive amounts for equipment at auction regardless of condition for some reason. take your pickup truck to your local dealer, try to trade it off, you wont get any more if you have service records or not. with pickup trucks, buy a diesel, run it into the ground till you have your first problem, and trade it. thats the best way i have found to do it.
I wish we had the luxury of not worrying about breakdowns. If you bought a new diesel pickup and traded it every time you had your first problem, you would be trading weekly. No amount of service can fix them, although the new new 2011s are getting a little better. Trade in on a pickup, service records arent going to help, tractor or semi, they will help a little. Where they help most is private party.
well... i plan on keeping the 04 dodge 5.9 forever for obvious reason. if i was in a newer truck i would keep trading for obvious reason.
i have to say deere for sure and my fav modle is the d series i like the fly by wire
does anyone use eaton instead of rexroth?
My favorite has been bobcat 773 because of the controls, but now I have a gehl because it was cheaper. My Dad's got a JCB now since it is easier for an older person to get in and out of.
Hows the JCB doing?I;ve only seen a couple around here,and was wondering how they are?
They're great! They'll have 10% market share by the end of 2012. Just ask Dave
still waiting to put the order in on a new jcb 205 with basically every option when we get the good word. it will be a glorious day... i assume jcb having 10% market share is a joke? ah word on the street is the new terex skid steers wont run for more than a couple days without breaking.
You got it Dave :thumbsup Couldn't tell you much about running the Terex skids other than what I've been told..the 60hp models have good power and balance, the larger machines are middle of the road with really crappy ingress and egress (I can vouch for for this having sat in both sizes of machines although I have not run any of them). I don't imagine selling my S220 anytime soon.
i am still impressed bobcat manages to compete with the standard dated 15 year old design. i recommend that asv use some of that terex money and get something decent going for them. what do they have the good ol boys designing their stuff still? im impressed at the rate cnh seems to be manufacturing their skid steers. dealerships were instantly loaded with stock models right after their release.
The S220 was and is a damn good machine. The new S630 replaces it though and I wouldn't say it looks dated. I think ASV is probably doing just fine. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a big Terex fan, but I do think that Terex will sell more skid steers in their first full year of building them than JCB ever did in a year after all the time they've been around (100-200 a year). Their new machines are going to have to be far and above better than any of the other new machines out there on the market because the robot arm isn't going to convince anyone any more than it already has had a chance to do in the years since it was first introduced to the US.
If we're still talking about skid steers here, I really find it hard to determine a favorite. That is I've had Case,Deere,NH and Gehl. They were all different size machines (1845c 260 775&645? 7800) I think the Case would have run until the end of time, the 260 was strong but Deere had not refined it and there were some comfort and other issues, the New Holland (s) were tough as nails but the tilting the cab deal sucks and so far with the Gehl I'm perfectly happy other than (in my opinion) early boom pin wear, although I can't attest to the first 500 or so hours maintainence, got it used. But for flat out grunt and lifting power, there has been no competition for Gehl in this class machine... up until now. Bobcat's new big boy has similar numbers on paper. If you notice, Bobcat is missing from my list above and that's not completely by accident but when it was time for me to go shopping, every time I checked out the "white brand" I would allways notice the small size of the pins on the loader and then went on to compare the machine weight, Bobcat was allways light. This may be a dumb factor to consider, but I do think that it has some reflection on durability and it does take weight to get that HP to the ground. Since BC is now Korean or something, and along with their seemingly complex (I admit to an electrical phobia) electrical systems, I really don't see a BC in my future. To be fair, BC owned the SS market at least in my (old) area and that says alot, and again, I have not owned one. I'm interested in seeing how their new 855? (not sure on the mod #) works out. FWIW, if you've never put a 110hp/5 ton skid steer with OTT's thru the middle of a freshly dumped triaxle load of dirt..... watch the heads spin! Now this big class requires DOW trailer and larger truck to transport and clearly you will not squeezr in some of the tight spots that a smaller unit will, and they tend to be hard on tires with their long 55" wheelbase but they reach up to about 12' and load over the sideboards of most any truck, and for some that's a requirement. I have liked ALL of the SS that I have had, they just had different things that they excelled in.:usa
Yea, I think that pretty much sums it up. The single arm, in my view has always been a solution in search of a problem. You can make the case for safety, which it clearly is more safe, however I dont think many guys have issues with stepping over the bucket or under it apparently. Honestly even if this new series kills the competetion in everyway, most will still not buy it, because its a JCB and it looks goofy and it has one arm and because JCB's prior machines sucked soo bad no one will risk it, even though it may run (not my opinion just what I feel is the general consensus ). While CNH's manufacturing ability may look impressive, I am still waiting on a TR320, I the super high flow pump is the hold up. I think when it finally gets here I am going to wrapped the hell out of it in Christmas lights and park it my front yard. The Terex machines lacked some refinement in my opinion. Like mentioned, getting in and out is not a lot of fun. Considering how bad some OEM's first series were (Deere specifically) if it runs and is dependable, that should be considered a win.
I think that Bobcat machine you're talking about is the S850 . Compact track loader counterpart is the T870, I think. L
hahahah!! i am dying laughing here!! give it time, i will be back to say i told you so in the future when jcb is established in the skid steer market. maybe terex should have teamed up with jcb instead of asv... i will say that "terex" being the smaller (skid steer) manufacturer is (asv) seems to be in touch with their customers directly from the factory. they bought bak the lemon skid steer the local farmer had.
howcome the giant skid steers of the 80s never took off? if your looking for boom strength, go with the terex, their boom is impressive.
around here the main thing that would stop people from buying a jcb is they dont offer foot controls or mechanical hand controls. much like everyone, they are blind to anything that might be better but is different.
Like I said, different jobs and uses for the different (size) machines. I think that the "giant" skid's are gaining popularity with an overall initial outlay and operating costs that are a small fraction of what a "regular" track loader would be. Now I realize that it's hardly fair to compare what a 953 will do compared to the big skid steers but, it's really it's closest cousin in terms of excavation work and truck loading. You could include similar capicity wheel loaders in that argument as well. This may be the reason for BC to enter this market. It seems that back in the 80's as you reference, and still today in some peoples thinking, skid steers are just little utility machines, like a dustpan and broom, something that you might use after the real work is done (on a pipe or dirt job), or on the farm, it's a good scraping cow **** and moving round bales and helping with the chores. This is where the mid size machines do make sence.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X-3yqsm0Xo bobcat 980. 14,500 pounds. might be 70s vintage...
ah the newness wore off for my buddy who bought his case sr250 or whatever and now he is pissed the controls suck compared to his 445. ah ic my chronic wrist pain is bak for the winter from driving the bobcat around too much.
What controls did He get?
the standard ones.
Yeah, but in the new series I don't think that is the same as what the old ones had(if that makes any sense...). I have servo 'H' pattern in a 440S3 skid and am happy with it. Kaiser would have to confirm what the new Alphas are?(again, sorry) I know they have a 'new' pattern that is basically like the old 1840/1845's. I ran it and hated it, thought it was not user friendly and don't know why they would go backwards with it?
case case case
Hello all, I've spent quite a bit of time on this forum researching different machines. I think I am leaning toward the purchase of a Gehl ctl70, or a case 440 ct. I haven't decided yet, but 2 to go and I'll ask.
All of these new skidsteer are decent machines. Stick with a local dealer that wants your business and you'll have your best chance at skidsteer bliss.........my .02 ............Gehl ctl70 is a solid performer. Same as a Tak and they are pretty bullet proof.
Where are you in NE Montana? If your close to a CASE CE dealer your support will be excellent (Titan Equipment). If you only have the ag support it is hit and miss how good they will be. Some of the ag service guys are only marginal on supporting the CE equipment in my view. The Bismarck Titan store has a good reputation but a long way for you to go. I am not sure if there is a CE store in NW North Dakota or not. Given all the activity over there, it would not surprise me if they had a store in Williston or Minot.
I am in Wolf Point. I commute to Williston everyday. Titan is there I believe, if not they will be soon. Of course, I think every company will be there soon. You think that Case may be the way to go?
Distance is a moot point here. Wal-mart is 100 miles away, I don't mind the driving.
i have always wondered, do the ce places care if i bring my skid steer in to get worked on when its completely full of cow manure?
Here we have a large ag and CE store combined. They treat dirt and manure the same way. They power wash the machine and it costs you some extra money. As far as chosing the CASE, yea that would be my pick. The Gehl branded Tak is solid, but they break as well (my dealer is also a Tak dealer). Your service will be much better with CASE than Gehl. The 440CT and wheeled is an excellent machine. What year is the 440 your looking at?
If by standard you mean direct linkage, it is what it is. If you mean standard as in E/H tell him to keep in contact with his dealer some very significant updates are coming. My thoughts on deciding between direct and E/H would be this (keep in mind that tracked machines only come with E/H so my decision was made for me in my instance). Direct will never be anything more than what it is. Its cheaper, more fatiguing to run, and more than likely more reliable since there is a lot less to go wrong. E/H is the opposite of all those things, however it is an emerging technology and while running it during a demo took me about half the alotted time just to get used to its behavior, it will continue to get better. It will be more pleasurable to run which makes it more productive. The improvements are coming fast with the Alpha series, soon I feel that you wont know the difference between pilot and E/H as far as feel and response unless someone tells you. That is based on nothing more than my hunch that Witchita will keep the "pedal to the metal" on the evolution of this product.
2002 - I started my own thread.
ah, he has the manual controls. when he was buying he asked my opinion i told him you wont have any problems with the manual controls, but you will not like them. what is with the giant tires they are putting on these machines all the sudden? so bobcat has been in the eh business for like 10 years now, do they not have it down yet? i see they have a 3 year warranty on them. ah i would imagine jcb has er all figured....
The Kubota SVL is the best I have seen. I love the Bobcats that I own and like the Newholland that I just got. But that Kubota is really nice. I havent worked one yet. One thing I like about Bobcat is our dealer in Tulsa rents them so we can try them out first. If you bring yours in for service, they rent you one like it for half price too. Great guys to deal with.
The single arm actually wasn't the problem before, it was the lack of refinement on the rest of the machine. The old cabs sucked, and we didn't have a lot of the features needed to compete with the other guys. Those issues have been addressed on the new machines, the single arm is in a lot of instances, icing on the cake for most guys, for reasons stated below. I have to disagree with this as well. 20 Years ago was JCB trying to build a better moustrap? Maybe. Differentiate themselves? Maybe. But I think it is a bit neglectful to say that the only benefit of the single arm is safety (which should be higher on all of our lists, including mine). Additionally, ingress and egress is much improved, visibility is superior to anything out there, maintenance is reduced, and it's guaranteed for life. All nice characteristics when thinking about a skid loader. I may as well add it to my signature, but it all comes down to your dealer....if you have no local support for a particular brand, it is hard to argue in that brand's favor, not matter what the sticker on the side says. All I can say is that we are getting SSL and CTL deals with these new JCB machines that we wouldn't have gotten with the old ones. Market share? Time will tell.
I think there is no doubt that safety is the only benefit. There is little visibility off the right side of the machine once the arm is in a travel position. Egress is easier but I attribute that to safety aspect already acknowledged. I agree that the single arm was not the only issue the older SSL product line. However I think its easy to mix customers preconcieved issues and actual issues. There is no doubt at least its my view that mainstream customers dont view the standard entry into a skid steer as a serious safety issue. They just don't and we all probably should, but until that happens the single arm is as I said a solution in search of a problem. Without that the safety aspect you have nothing. I already said I disagree with visibilty. Loader arms dont fail on anyones machine with enough frequency to cause concern. JCB has to offer that because many dont think it can hold up. No one else needs to prove their loader arms so no one else is going to warranty their loader arms. When a customer has questions of durbility with a JCB loader are its easy to shut him up with "its warrantied" (if you pay for it). JCB's inability to sell these machines in the past is at least a three part problem. The single arm causes concerns (many unfounded but back to the preception thing), the machines were terrible from a performance standpoint. Lastly dealer support is highly suspect in many parts of NA. There are other issues like zero resale and so forth. If JCB fixed the performance issues, you have one leg of the stool on and it had to start there. Now it will take about Billion dollars in advertising, JCB road shows bringing their machines across the Country in head to head competetions and lastly dealers like yourself willing to work hard at selling these machines, because these machines for the vast majority of customers will never sell themselves. We likely will have to agree to disagree. Your a JCB dealer and I am an end user that doesn't use your product (at least your JCB product line) so you need to stand up for your product which you have always done in common sense way. I think if there is any serious hope in gaining acceptance in this market it may hinge on Volvo's ability to gain access to markets JCB doesnt have access to. The fact that JCB may have gotten the rest of the machine right will certainly make your job easier.
I think this is a pretty absurd statement. Yes, visibility is limited to the right side of the machine with the boom in a certain position. So is every other skid steer, ON BOTH SIDES. That would be like me telling you visibility out of your TV380 is terrible because when I try to look past the rear loader loader linkage I can't see. Of course you can't see. What you're (not "your"...sorry, had to get you back for the subjective/factual correction) forgetting is the other 270 degrees of completely unobstructed view. I know that you sat in the machines at ConEx last year, but have you ever ran a new machine to experience the visibility first-hand? If so, then I would "agree to agree to disagree." If not, then you owe Dave an apology. It's easy to discount the visibility when you're wearing blinders.... Loader arms do, in fact, fail. Every day, no, but I did just sell a guy a new 260 JCB and the previous two NH units he had, the booms broke. Now, I realize NH is not necessarily the pedigree when it comes to skids (although they are 4th in market share), but it does happen. You have actually proven the reason JCB made the boom warranty an "add on." If a guy feels he needs the extra piece of mind on his boom, so be it. If not, he doesn't have to purchase it. Regardless, JCB is willing to put their money where their mouth is and back it should the customer want this added protection. The single arm also provides more space to have the largest cab in the industry, the lowest SAE service audit scores, and (again, agreeing to disagree) the easiest entry and exit. Is it that difficult to crawl over a bucket, not really. But what about other types of attachments that are irregularly shaped/designed? To say it isn't easier, regardless of your brand allegience, is simply denying the facts. I agree with most of your last statement with the exception of the Volvo part. I don't think the Volvo-branded JCB will do anything but help JCB for the reason you stated, but I also don't believe that JCB's success with their skid hinges on Volvo either. Much of it will come down to your other suggestions of Road Shows/Demos/Dealer strength. It's a shame that you and I aren't closer, as I enjoy disputing the facts with you, and would love an opportunity to demonstrate a machine to you. Keep in mind, I also sell Case, so your brand loyalty could be a lot worse!
this is almost like the presidental election that comeing up! bottom line is every piece of steel that moves dirt is going to cost money for repairs and drink fuel , yellow , white blue or gray they are all the same...... Being a JCB owner (only because it was priced right used) the parts will take all the fun out of repairs.......
LOL! I like to think I am more open minded than you make me out to be. None of what I commented on has anything to do with CASE or my purchase decisions. I think my points stand on their own and while you and I may disagree with their validity, never the less I think they are logical and common held thoughts on JCB skid steers. I think overall I am very fair to JCB in my opinions. I have no interested in running down JCB or any other OEM to benefit CASE. I am a long time CASE customer and I am fairly versed in them. However before I bought my TR320, I seriously demoed a 279C. I need to be productive because productive makes me money, while I have favored CASE, I will buy what I think gives me the best opportunity to be productive and profitable. While I encourage guys to demo a CASE, that is as far as I go. If you like it, buy it, if not buy something else. Thats as far as my "Blinders" go. The difference with visibility is this. While your obstruction is only to the right side and none to the left, it is a MASSIVE obstruction. I dont need to demo it to see the issue. The right side visibility is limited at best. So if given an option, I would rather have two smaller obstructions on both sides than all and nothing as with the JCB (or lets agree at very little). Would you not agree with that? I dont disagree that it is easier to get in and out of. I accept that the side door has advantages and perhaps some disadvantages. My main point is that I believe that most customers either dont see the benefit or think it is significant enough to buy a skid steer built around that concept. I didn't say that JCB's success hinged completely on Volvo. I just think its a huge opportunity for JCB. Volvo has more dealerships and is more accepted in North America. That will get your machine a demo when it normally would not. It will be up to the machine to make the sale after that. That being said Volvo couldnt sell their own (well Scat Trac's) skid steers, but now I think they have a much more refined machine to sell, guess we will see how it does. I wish you the best of luck with JCB. I mean that. The fact that as a dealer your willing to debate your machines attributes on an online forum says a lot. You believe in what your selling (even if the rest of North America doesn't). I am kidding! I am kidding!
True, but debating the issue is more entertaining than sweeping the shop floor again.
I went ahead and took the liberty of taking a few measurements on the TR270 I have on my lot vs. a JCB 225T. Both machines are radial lift boom styles, although the 225T is a slightly bigger machine. The booms on the TR270 measure 10". Your argument would be more true had Case (not picking on Case only, but that is what I had for comparison's sake) decided to not extend the outer plate of the arms further than the actual boom. It gives the appearance of a larger arm. Why would anyone want their loader arms to appear larger? I take it as a compliment when someone describes our Powerboom as "massive". Speaking of, the JCB Powerboom on the 225T (or any large frame machine for that matter), measures 12". So this massive disparity between JCB's Powerboom and a Case (again, only using them because that's what I had....I'm sure other OEM's are similar) is a whopping 2". So lets sum up. We have a total of 12" of obstruction on the right side of our machine. The Case TR270 has a 10" obstruction on each side, for 20" of total obstruction. Now I know that I am over-simplifying by adding the numbers together, but it does make my point. Most people who have never operated a JCB machine have a pre-conceived notion that the boom is SO much larger it HAS to get in the way. Larger? Yes. But when you compare the immense benefit of the other 3 directions of visibility, the 2" ends up not amounting to a hill of beans (that's what she said, right?). The other thing is that you would be surprised at how many customers actually point out the side entry as a benefit. Is this alone enough to justify a purchase? Of course not. However, now that we finally have a machine to go with that feature, like I stated in an earlier post, it's icing on the cake. In my opinion, at least in my market, Volvo's issues for skids could also be attributed to what I like to call the "Komatsu Effect". Why did Komatsu get out of the compact equipment line? (with the exception of mini Ex's) Because they couldn't convince their dealers that their time was as well spent selling a SSL or CTL as it was selling a 40T haul truck, or a PC400. I think this could have been true with Volvo also, and depending on the dealer, may remain the case even with a better product to sell. Now I'm not speaking specifically for my local dealer, as I am not familiar enough with their operation, but I think this general statement can be argued. Lastly, if only our current batch of Presidential candidates could debate as intelligently and civilly as KSSS and I have, we would all be better off!!!
i like the direction this thread is going!
I guess all the winter PM's are done and nothing needs wrenching ? anyway thank you for your objective opinion on all subject. I see all to often some A hole will run there mouth or key board in this case on a subject that isnt helpfull.
"Lastly, if only our current batch of Presidential candidates could debate as intelligently and civilly as KSSS and I have, we would all be better off!!!" [/QUOTE] very true , I only wished they had the same common sense that we have. how many trillion did he ask china for and how many time? Its like going out back and picking the money tree ! dont fix it just spend it we can print more. I for one shop by where a product is made , go out and by a pair of socks made in the USA . Not many companys make stuff here in the USA anymore and if we dont start seeing this and acting on it we will be worse then the Russians economy. FYI Koles had New Ballance socks made in the USA around Xmass . Rant over ! and again Thank you!
who is the a hole?? as far as the jcb boom containing more steel than the competition. it needs to. we are only lifting a few thousand pounds; its not like it takes a lot to do that. the visibility argument is hard to argue on boom width alone. bottom line is jcb has what something like 80 degrees SAE additional visiblity over competition.
I think you hit the nail on the head.:cool2 Personally, I wouldn't by that machine because of the single arm design. Skids take a lot of abuse, side to side on the bucket especially when heavy digging and prying. The JCB's boom may hold up to that and hold up well, but I am not willing to risk my hard earned money on a concept when I have 20+ years experience with the standard 2 arm machines, it's just not worth the risk, to me anyway.
i have seen a lot of snapped skid steer loader arms in my day. jcb is the only one who offers a lifetime boom warranty to their customers.
Ok this will be my last point to make on the issue (as cheers erupt across HEF). I was anticipating the combining of loader arm obstruction arguement, as I heard this at ConExpo as well. Its an interesting stat but not really revelent. The 2" difference in arm height by itself may not seem like much but combined with a wider arm (which is as much of an obstruction as height can be), a larger single rear tower and having all the tilt mechanism on the right side it adds up to a "massive" obstruction. I realize that every machine has its blind spots as you elevate the loader arms and you have to find the "holes" around the arm linkage to see out of . I mentioned this with the 279 demo. Given my option I would still prefer to have equal amount of obstruction on both sides than clear on one side and have much more limited view on the other. No one uses a skid steer because they have to much room, they use them for exactly the opposite reason (as well as others) you cant always favor turns to the left or control what happens on the other side of the machine. Thats why having some obstruction on both sides is better than all and nothing (sorry how about more obstructed because it is), but perhaps I am just a traditionalist. I will say this. I have never spent a day working in a new series JCB. I suggest you and I take a trip to the new JCB plant, we will set up an obstacle course, I get the machine of my choice and we will compete head to head and see who can see what. As long as we are at it, lets test the dirt digging/moving productivity as well. We can put it on Utube. We'll have a great time! I think it would be a great opportunity for JCB to display their new machines attributes. Its also gets me out of the frozen tundra for a couple days. If I win however, I get a "yes shane you were right all along" thread here on HEF. As far as the Komatsu Effect, yea there is certainly something to that. I see it in many of the CASE ag dealers (present company obviously excluded). The amount of work required to sell a skid steer many times is just as intensive as selling a Magnum tractor just with less monetary incetive. CAT seems to have been able to sell the small iron along side the larger stuff with more success. Get JCB to spring for our trip to Ga. and lets get this settled (I will pay to rent the CASE oops I mean machine of my choice).
hahaha, this is awesome! i will show up with the old bobcat and literally run circles around everyone with their fancy shmancy electric controls...guaranteed!! i dont even need to see to know what is going on in the old bobcat. oh, and visibility to the arm side of the jcb is still better than on the bobcat. the selling points for me are the quiet pressurized cab, the heavy rear door, and ease of cleaning the glass and the floor of the cab. the safety factor and side entry are a bonus for me.
Dave rest easy , no on this topic ! There was a guy that Willy unloaded on about 2 months ago , there was more then a few post from this guy that had personal attacks as I recall. I also recall a few post that a Yanmar fan add nothing to the conversation .
if i was blind, i would rather be blind in both eyes than in just one too!! ah i might make it my lifes work to get kss in a jcb. im pretty sure i could make a strong argument that the arm side visibility of the jcb is way better than the case series 3 visibility.
I honestly just don't care about the single arm, it is not important so JCB(or Volvo) would have to compete straight up to make me leave what I run now(Case 440S3). Around here I'm not sure who the JCB dealer even is and for me the resale and finance package is really important. I like Case skids but they do have to offer a good deal, I just don't have money to overspend no matter what 'color' I like.
Ok, here's the last thing I'll say on the issue.....had a demo with a guy yesterday and afterwords, I ran my 300T around the lot, digging some rock piles, etc. I made it a point to check visibility out the right side and all I'll say is that with the boom in "carry" position, you can see the outside of the right track by looking under. With it in the cradle position, you can look over the boom and still see the top of the track. I guess I won't beat a dead horse and finally just agree to disagree on the visibility issue. What you are forgetting is that I'm just a "sales" guy and would most certainly look like a monkey effing a football compared to someone with your operating skills in a competition (that was a compliment, take it as such). I can operate, but I don't do it every day. As long as I got to pick the operator too, I would say "you're on." Unfortunately, I don't think either of us flying to Savannah is a feasable or cost effective alternative (good luck getting JCB to pay for that!). I will say this, should you ever get the wild hair to head to that part of the country, get a hold of me and I will arange a factory tour and some "demo" time. Hell, if you get to my part of the country, look me up and I'll convert you, I mean, show you our skids personally. If anyone is going to Louisville, I'll most likely be around the JCB or Case IH booths (yes, I know it's a "farm" show and this is a construction forum, but hey, it's all big iron, so why not enjoy it!?) Feel free to hunt me down and introduce yourself.
I can't believe I read most of this thread... I have a headache now.. I'm not sure how this became about JCB but here's my .02. I have only owned CAT and Bobcat so I can't speak for CASE but I trust KSSS's assessments and I wouldn't hesitate to take his advice if the need arose.. Case Alpha series looks great on paper and we'll soon know how they hold up in the field. I like Bobcat M series (I own an s750 set up for mulching) over CAT c series but CAT has a lot of good features. I have not had the pleasure to demo a JD skid but if they are built anything like their work tools, I wouldn't hesitate there either. I have checked out an older JCB. I was not impressed. After reading about the redesigned model, I was a little intrigued but share some of the others' opinions about the boom arm being on one side. Hefty or not, I can see picture a lot of flex. I am not sure how they overcome the distribution of weight on one side but I thought I read the cab was slightly off-center.. I like things lined up in the middle.. but that's just me. I rarely get out of my machine with the boom arms up. It's dangerous and I know of a guy who was killed albeit he was working on the machine. Still, it's necessary on occasion to get out and put the boom support in place. Have to hand it to JCB on that. We also own a Bobcat toolcat. While not a skid steer, it does have a side entry and a big door that you have to reach way out to close.. It can be a PITA. I am just under 6' and I still have to lean to close it. It also has a lot of glass and it's a matter of time until something shatters a door glass or front windshield and I don't take it places that I take my Bobcat (and broke plenty of door glass there too). If I could design a machine, that would be my favorite.. take a little here and a little there. For now, I am happy with Bobcat but not 100% satisfied and I'm waiting for Bobcat to contact me to ask why. I've owned 12 or 13 skids (all Bobcat, one CAT) over 16 years and I still haven't found the perfect one. I think of all the models out there, it boils down to what works for the individual. I do about 40-45% mulching and the rest grapple and dirt work and other attachments with a skid. i think they are a great all-in-one tool but there are some serious deficiencies that need to be address... I can go on if anyone is interested in hearing my complaints/suggestions for improvement for Bobcat M series. Oh and if KSSS is going to do a competition, I want to see him do it in a shiny new 320 against a new JCB CTL.
ah sweet. well u know with me and the others we always end up discussing the jcb. the comfort that you get with the jcb makes it worth it. yes i am interested in your complaints about the m series. i am not impressed with them at all. they were not bad when they were released, but a lot has changed since then. as far as comfort goes, i would say jcb, then deere, then case new holland, then cat, then bobcat. my suggestion to bobcat would be to make a larger suspended modular quieter cab with easier entry and exit. the wiper motor is basically too big and in my way as well. screen setup hurts my view. case is not too bad. bobcat used to be 10 years ahead of anyone with their cab, now they are last i figure. for the record, i have never come close to breaking a side window, but there are always things busting through the front window trying to attack me. seems to me the screens and such need to go on the front more than the sides.
Fair enough. If I find myself in that area we'll do lunch. There's a Deere salesman on another forum that I conversed with. I met him in person while I was in Huntsville this Spring. Had a good time, ate a lot BBQ and ran some Deere equipment. Its all good.
I broke my first side window a couple days ago. I was pushing numerous loads of trees, limbs and roots in a pile to burn. I was using the 465. On the sides one window is outside the metal mesh and the other inside. A limb somehow got wrapped around the wheel and launched itself into the side of the cage, of course on the back window that is outside the mesh. Window vaporized as did $240.00
I can see that happening to my machine... ouch..
as far as flex goes, its not like you dont get it with a standard skid steer; just for the heck of it i put the corner of the bucket under an immovable object with the bobcat, lifted up, and got the other end of the bucket about ten inches off the ground so...
There goes your resale now...
haha, the bobcat cant hurt itself... its a balanced machine
Your not kidding. Your saying your got 10" of flex from one side of your bucket to the other? WOW you really need to get out of that machine. Just for the record, thats excessive.
haha that is a sweet feature for scraping uneven concrete!! for the record, that was an 8 foot bucket. i would imagine we will keep the bobcat and take it to another farm for odd jobs and such for its retirement. ah ic a while back we took it in for an electrical problem, which is funny cuz it has no electrical, and they sent us the bill for $3500, so that was awesome. im pretty sure only one lift cylinder is doing most of the work these days, that is the feeling im getting. oh, and one of the tilt cylinders got nicked by the grinder doing a weld job; surprisingly filling the nick in with weld has held up for 500 hours now...just a little leaking...
After reading all this about you kickin the crap out of the Bobcat for 10,000hrs i would think you would buy nothing but a bobcat! Hell anyone that wonders what kind of machine to buy would be interested to see all the abuse you have put yours through. I have a feeling you get bored like i do, you know something works and works well but still shop around looking for the next thing. I would be interested in checking out the new JCB/ Volvos, but i would have to absolutely steal one! There is no way i would buy a new one, i only keep anything about 3-5 years. I can promise that the resale would absolutely kill anybody who bought one of those machines and tried to sell or trade every couple of years. I guess if a guy was gonna ride the thing into the ground like the old bobcat there, than it really wouldnt matter.... Im gonna sit on the sidelines for a few years and wait for a cheapo to pop up on the auctions and see what happens. In the mean time i would love to run one, but i dont even think there is a stocking dealer within a 100 miles of here. Too bad, i bet they are sweet machines.
yea, i might be wrong to take for granted the reliability of the bobcat and assume that any other brand would be the same way. i really cant imagine having any type of breakdown with a machine with less than 4000 hours on it...i would be pisd!! sure the responsible thing would be to pick up a low hour s185 for 25k. but yes i get bored and dont see any fun in spending more than 20some years in basically the same machine. 40 years if you count the non 773 bobcats which were not much different either. if it was up to me (and i guess it is) every tractor on the farm would be a different brand that way i could drive a machine according to what mood i was in that day. if bobcat had small m series i would consider them, but i dont like how they are loud inside the cab/not to mention the dealer would be mad i dont want standard controls. im in a highly special situation in my area with bobcat and jcb. im convinced cost per hour would be no higher trading every few years between bobcat and jcb. although im sure the cost either way would be... high.
i just sold a ghel 170 which i owned for only a couple of months. granted it had a few issues unknown to me when purchased but after sizing up costs to put in a-one shape. i said sayanara to it and wished the new owner "good luck". i had owned and run a new holland 555 for many years before a pinhole in a radiator hose trashed the engine. i really loved that little machine. it did a awsome job for its size. anyway, i just purchased a 2000 new holland ls180 with only 450 hrs on it and it is now my new favorite machine. also picked up a 4in1 bucket and a set of forks with hydrualic adjusters. really like both of these pieces. machine came with steel tracks too, i think i'm gonna like them also.
Ran one of the c series cats the other day. Nice machines to run. Complaints about the L200 series NHs so far from me. Fan blades all chipped within first few hours, cab does not seal well, very noisy cab, hydraulic system is poor, have to run wide open to go anywhere in 2 speed but then cannot run the boom because the flow is too fast, they don't lock out the pedals anymore and you have nowhere to step but the pedals so you will feel the bucket jerk when stepping in with it running if you hit one of the pedals, the fuse box nightmare, the entire rear plastic design ordeal, its all been a PITA but my biggest complaint has to be serviceability. Boy did NH screw up. Its like they took their focus towards making the cab tilit easily and forgot about the rest of the machine. You cannot work on the engine. There is no access from the sides, the rear access is limited by a very tall radiator, very short engine compartment as well as an upper cover that doesnt raise far, and the front access with the cab up is restricted by the muffler. But the cab tilts up so you can work on the hydros and drives. What do you spend more time working on? Starters, alternators, water pumps etc. I had no issues with working on hydros and drive motors before. It was tighter and yes the cab required special jacks, but at least you could work on the motor. I think NH has built the least serviceable skid steer. We also had a relief valve fail leaving us with no hydraulics, and the quick attach cylinders hoses get hit by some attachements and loosen up. I always seem to turn the wiper on when exiting the cab as well, and I get very angry at the operate button because it is so small and usually have to hit it a couple times, I dont know why they couldnt make the big parking brake rocker switch underneath it do the same thing. Complaints from other farmers in the are have been fires, lots of fires due to chaff falling through the honeycomb screen in the back and settling down in the engine. The debris all settles on the muffler I noticed on ours, it always smells like it wants to burn up. Another farmer has replaced 3 radiators in 900 hours because of sand falling through the honeycomb and being blown through the radiator essentially sandblasting it to pieces. I don't know how bright their future is with these skids. Maybe some people like them. I dont know. I do like how large and bright the cab is. Visibility is still #1, but it stops there.
thanks thanks for the heads-up dmax. glad to know i made a wise choice. but you'll be glad to know i've remedied the problem. in order to save myself a lot of grief, i went right out and doused that darned thing with diesel and set a match to her. your opinion really got me motivated! i havn;t felt this good since the last time i got cussed out by an old drunk woman at a red light in front of all my grand children. meanwhile i trust you'll stay away from all them nasty ole new hollands. have yerself a good'n
Was this survey by people who depend on the skid-steers to be available to work or by mechanics who earn money fixing them? We have an old Case 1845C and a Bobcat 743 both have been abused hard in stone quarry since 1989, they have had their problems but mostly operator caused. We have a 1999 JCB 185 that spends more time in shop than out working, the only thing good about the JCB is it has an enclosed cab for rainy days.
can't tell is this is sarcasm or not? The LS180 you have is a great machine. Love our old new hollands. Reliable, simple and easy to work on.
Great thread! I really enjoyed reading this. Just wanted to say I am real happy with my Bobcat T 190 air conditioned,wide track machine. 4 in 1 bucket, Power rake, Trencher ( none of them bobcat brand) Been a great machine for grading and digging (i am a concrete contractor) even digging out and knocking over trees in clearing operations. Also have an LX 665 NH rubber tired machine, mostly carry concrete and rip out concrete with this machine. Had some trouble with this machine a while ago: Broke lift arm rams in two, no load, baffled New Holland, they sent out a Rep. Happened twice. Finally replaced with the same as LS model and havent had any trouble. Cracked lift frame around pins in the back, New Holland makes an over sized gusset, I welded those on and all is well. Cracked and broke the lift frame at the bucket pin point, this was my fault I had the T 190 bucket on and was being a little aggressive, I made gussets and welded it up, no problems. Also have a Bobcat 334 mini ex with several buckets, power thumb and 12 inch auger, this machine is 10 years old and I LOVE IT. Talk about a useful machine, great for loading wood on brush pile fires. Anyway, thats my two cents, Ed
I read the thread where you got your new tag line, love it. We've all been there lol
80 gallons in 5 hours? A d-10 cat dozer don't burn that much. I'll admit the new John Deere like fuel but not that much. Currently own a 6330 with cab n it burn 1-3 gallon an hr n it's a 90 horse I belive Dave 80 gallons in 5 hours. Come on dude how many of you guys thinks that's true or false
Maybe 8.0 gallons?
In my experience, most large skids and CTL's will burn 3-4 gallons per hour working at 80%+ engine load. Lighter duty=less load=less fuel. Obviously, this is impacted by many variables, including altitude, types of attachments being ran, even ground conditions. That's why I reference engine load, because all of the other factors ultimately come down to the load placed on the engine, and thus, fuel burned.
Takeuchi is not on the list and has been the best ROI for me over the last ten years. Hmmm.........:beatsme
Mustang 2700V
Bobcat 650 high flow fully loaded
I know I am new here but read though most of this post and had to sign up !! I kinda like my old '80 Gehl hl4500 it's been on fire twice do to operator error (dipstick welding on it) oooh that be me, sorry, runs like a champ, starts when its twenty below, always does what is asked of it, weather it be loading trucks/trailers, running the front sacrificer bar tearing up clay or class 5, or the root rake rippin up stumps it's never let's me down!! 40 hp of pure madness!!! I am thinking of moving on up to a case 1845 though that should be a powerhouse!!! I know I won't be competing with any of ya'all on here but sure works great on the forty acres of deer property I'm working on. enjoy the day
I may be a little biased, but I love my Case 1845C. Not the most high tech machine, but it's does everything short of running a snow blower. And has been rock solid for the last 17 years. I'm convinced that after the apocalypse, the only things left moving will be cockroaches and 1845c's. But I was looking at those S650's the other day and well it's kind of like a caveman seeing a 747 for the first time.
And TS14's.
You guys in the US build the best skidsteers in the world BOBCAT and CATERPILLAR , why do you want to buy anything else???
I probably should have made this comment years ago but was a little ashamed of my prowess as an operator.It almost goes without saying that nearly everyone who does site work has at least one of them and more often two or more,usually not trading in their old one and just adding to the fleet.I was usually busy running something else and the skid steer operators came from the disposable workforce and it is just as well because I probably was no better than the guy off the street when it came to control because the dang things are not intuitive to me,everything is upside down and it is a lot of work to get anything out of them.What's worse is that I have seen guys that can do no wrong and just shame me to death and I am always afraid that the help has seen those guys too and I get embarrassed to be seen in one. I can carry a grade but I work for it.Now,the best one that I have run was the John Deere but only for the reason that when digging with a backhoe attached I can reach behind me to move the machine,every other one that I have seen you had to dismount and physically sit in the seat,some even require the seat belt to be fastened to get the machine to move so in my experience the JD was the best.Ron G
Because we can buy Takeuchi's if we want a CTL that's designed to kick @ss and make other machines in it's size class look bad.
I think its a good, simple and strong machine. Too bad their market share in the US continues to decline to a point of being the 5th choice or lower. :beatsme
Personally TAK machines are my least liked....the biggest problem with them is their lack of operator comfort in terms of ride quality.... A day in a TAK is equivalent to a month in any of my CAT machines. They have tons of power but literally can beat the operator to freakin death in a very short amount of time...
Have seen 1840s and 1845Cs tortured in rental fleets for years and then resold for near purchase price. I spent 50 years of my life in this industry as a mechanic and if there are much better machines out there I am not convinced of it but that makes me like everyone else. Logically or illogically we all have our own opinions and likely will not be changed. Not many people will spend their money on their brand and then come on here and talk it down no matter how much they have in repair cost. A clear example is the Cat / Perkins fiasco that has cost either Cat or their customers millions in repairs not to mention down time.
I'm a newby here but not by way of operating skid steer loaders. For many years I felt the ol 1845cs were the best all around loader money could buy. Rock solid with great ability to get the job done. Not to big and not to small. But like everything else no one loader is the best suited for every job. I've owned a 4475 JD loader since 2000. This has been the best piece of equip. I've ever owned as far as dependability. This is a small & light loader which makes it very easy to haul but it can out lift /carry and also outrun many larger loaders. Lastly it's great on fuel economy. Great light duty loader! For a mid level tractor I think it's hard to beat the 185 model New Holland. Gott'a love what this tractor can do. Fast and comfortable. Lastly the heavy weight contender favorite I just purchased. The A-300 Bobcat all wheel steer. I don't know of another skid steer that has the ability to turn the wheels sideways. I'm surprised no other manufacturer is going after this market. This is not the only thing it excels at. The 3k rated working load / 6k tip is pretty impressive. Cab/seat is comfortable. Controls are effortless and easy to use. Extremely versatile use of attachments with speed & flow controls. Truly a state of the art loader IMO and this comes from a person that has hated Bobcat loaders for years. The old 700 series Bobcats have scared me so many times by being tippy that I never gave a Bobcat the chance to be in my stable till now. I'm a mason contractor so we primarily use our loaders for lift and carry. The 2 speed & AWS ability is a pretty cool asset.
What do you do if you need to turn right with a JCB/VOLVO? How do you see where to go with the bucket of dirt off the ground and that boom on your right? Left circles only???
works for nascar
Almost spit coffee on that one..... :drinkup
You Da Man!!! Dat's Funny Right thar!!! Laughing made me feel much better!!!
Volvo Rents changed to Blueline Rentals, They have hundreds of the Volvo Skid Steers (Made by JCB) and are liquidating the entire Volvo Skid Steer fleet. You can get 200-400 hour machines that look brand new for half price - Just check the auction sites. Guess they ought to know something about it!
That explains all those JCB/Volvo skid steers hitting the used market, most seemingly coming out of Texas. The reason no else offers an AWS skid steer besides BC is that they don't sell many and there is not enough market for anyone else to bother with trying to compete for such a small market share. I would disagree about CAT and BC offering the best machines, I have never owned either and I do quite well using "the other options".
I have been deliberately avoiding this thread because this dicussion will invariably always come down to opinion. I have thousands of hours in (I'll put them in alphabetical order) Bobcat, Case, Cat, Deere, and New Holland. Some of the machines were better than the average, some were worse. I believe that all the brands are fairly comparable when it comes to reliability IF they are being used for light to medium duty work. Move up to heavy or severe duty, there are going to be machines that show their teeth and stand up better. That being said, good, conscientious operators and proper service can bring that gap closer.
yea I am just posting something on here so I can get of probation and ask a question.
cliff you are on probation so you have to go to some of these forms and make about 5 posts and then sign out and sign back in later or the next day and then you should be able to start a post. That is what I am doing here talking to you, lol.
Great comment...couldn't agree with you more....that's basically what it boils down too after all of the ******** is removed.
well I will finally admit that I OWNED a JCB....it sucked for two reason instantly.....and did not own it long enough to know about reliability and such. I know this is an old thread. The single arm design shifts all the weight to one side...so side hills really suck....and the track on the arm side has way more stress......I am guessing if you have no hills and soft spots it is ok. I bought it because we have to get out at the mid loader lift point sometimes and thought that it was great for that....The arm side track with a full bucket will sink to china in soft conditions.....I own all New Holland units now...mostly because the dealer is VERY good in our area....but they are also a very nice machine
I own a Volvo MCT125c, the most stable machine I've run, if the bucket is loaded even it will put weight on both tracks even plus the engine is moved over to offset the weight of the single arm when empty. Around my sawmill I'll never be without a side door machine again as it's just too handy to leave the forks up and get out the side.
It works well for you and that is great. It worked very well in our yard too. We make mountain bike trails in the rocky mountains through hills, valleys, and even build bridges to cross marshy areas....JCB single arm does not work well there. The engine offset is not even close in our slopes....did you ever try to use a post pounder on an 18 degree slope with a jcb? Does not really matter anyways....don't really care as it is gone....if it works for you then great cause the used ones around here go cheap...check auction prices....rarely will you see a landscaper and general contractor with one...it is just my opinion and you are entitled to yours...just warning guys to demo it in the hills and mud not in dealer parking lot, then they can make up their own minds. The side door is nice...but.....
I haven't weighed each side of my Volvo but I'd bet the weight is real close on both tracks. It will go places out in my hills that my Case 75xt wouldn't even think of going.
The JCB/Volvo SSL/CTLs don't seem to be too popular with most people, but I've often considered trading in my NH L220 on a JCB 260T (same as a Volvo MCT125), just because of the side entry door!! I REALLY would like to be able to get in/out more easily than thru the front, & the ability to get in/out with the boom half up, when you work alone as I do, would be fantastic!! But the 260T/125 is pretty heavy at over 10,000 lbs, & it's gross power-to-weight ratio (gross hp per 1,000 lbs) is very low at 6.9. Do you find that yours feels under-powered or sluggish?? For comparison, here are some power-to-weight ratios for some other machines: - My current NH L220 = 9.3 - Cat 257D = 9.2 - Cat 287D = 7.5 (I've heard some opinions that this is under-powered.) - ASV PosiTrack RT-60 = 8.7 - ASV PosiTrack RT-75 = 8.1 - ASV PosiTrack RT-120 = 10.7
Not popular is right and that why you can buy a used one real reasonable, going ahead and back is kind of sluggish on mine but I think that's adjustable, I leave it there as I'm not loading trucks using it around my mill and out in the woods. It's not underpowered at all, with a regular dirt bucket it will push dirt over the top of the bucket easy, mine is a track machine with wide tracks , it's rated at 2600# but I've lifted a 5500# log with it, my Case 75xt(good machine) is rated at 2250# but this Volvo will lift almost twice as much.. Controls are silky smooth and all but the ahead and back are real responsive. I paid $23500 for a 2012 with 930 hours 1 year ago, a major brand would be in the high $30's at least.
Actually I liked the engine in the jcb...the power was actually pretty good..the arm never twisted or looked under strain...the vis was good...side door was awesome.....it was REALLY good on fuel. But I will stick to the side hill issue and uneven weight when loaded. On flat ground or up down hills it is fine ....side hills were too scary for me.
What model JCB were you running, huge difference between the old ones and newer ones, according to Volvo the weight is the same on both sides.
Jcb 300t. Empty both side are close I think....it is the canter lever principle when loaded is the problem
i figured i might have to respond to this thread with my vast experience and knowledge of JCB skid steers. first of all i finally figured out why people who have historically had joysticks like them and boast of them so much. its because most of them are getting paid by the hour to run them. we had the jcb skid steer for quite some time and that is my conclusion. if I'm getting paid by the hour i will take the jcb all day long before a competitive brand. but that is why we are back into a bobcat. you can get more done with it. the bobcat joystick machine gets more done than the jcb joystick machine, but still not nearly as much as the manual machine. it does appear that people seem to either love or hate the jcb skid steer. i would say my relationship with the jcb was love and hate simultaneously. for the most part i really liked the jcb, but the bottom line is the machine just couldn't comfortably get a satisfactory amount of work done in the allotted time. i would say the jcb is a light/medium duty machine. in extreme conditions other brands are probably better. we always squeeze more than 100% out of our skid steers, and the bobcats have historically done a good job with that. as far as the off balance argument goes, if you talk to your local university physics professor, he is going to tell you the one arm is insignificant. and it is for the most part. however, when running our jcb i was surprised to notice that if the machine was going to tip over, it was going to be towards the arm side; not that it ever tipped over. so after a couple years i finally discovered why the machine can feel slightly off balance at times. its because of the weight of the arm itself. a small amount, but it makes a difference. the weight distribution is even normally, but when you raise that arm in the air all the way. you got an extra couple hundred pounds of weight high in the air on one side of the machine, which is going to shift the machines center of gravity towards that side a little bit. so this is why there is a difference. its not the standard argument people make who claim all the weight is on the right side of the machine just because the arm is over there. as far as using the machine in the hills, i don't know if the design is really for hills that much; thats more asv territory. our machine was not great on hills, but it was also only 60 inches wide. at the end of the day, i would recommend a good demo on any machine before you purchase. i never had a demo on the last 2 machines i bought, and i will never buy another one without a demo again. i wouldn't have purchased either of the last 2 machines if i had a good demo. if you demo the jcb and like it, your probably going to like it; and if you don't you won't.
i was thinking that my statement of a couple hundred pounds was an understatement. the best jcbs were the big ones with pilot controls. i wouldn't hesitate to pick up a good used one of those if i was an average skid steer user. the first year of the small frame ones had some issues. and i don't think the small ones are quite as good as the big ones. if the stars would have aligned better for jcb, i think they would have enjoyed more success with their skid steer intro. i have to admit i feel they have sold more machines than people thought they would. at this point i am guessing they are doing a full redesign, i am guessing they are considering putting 2 arms on the machine; but that is all my speculation. i am also confident they will offer mechanical controls, and i am confident they are trying to lower machine sticker price. i don't know if there is really room in the market place for another 2 armed machine, this would be the only reason i could see them staying with 1 arm.
You will never see JCB move away from the single lift arm design. Live or die, that is their claim to fame. Dave, the comment on the joysticks being for guys that work by the hour has no basis. I think most complaints you hear about joystick (EH I assume you mean) is that it is too fast for the operator to handle. I owned servo hand controls from 94 until 2012 when I got my first EH machine, they (EH) are certainly not slower and if they are you reprogram them to make them react the way you want it to react. I have never run JCB controls so maybe your experience with them is what is forming your opinion, but most people would likely disagree with you about the productivity drop from mechanical to EH, especially the current machines, the EH is much improved from when it first came on scene.
I ran a JCB machine at a Ritchie brothers sale for about 10 minutes, I can see why you think that about pilot controls!! I could work circles around that machine with one half the size. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a slow pilot control machine now, I put a number of hours a new TL10 last year, super fast controls. If I was making a broad assumption based on machines I have run I would say that hand foot controls are slower than most pilot operated machines IMO.
yes, the jcb electric joysticks were nothing to write home about in the turning department, especially depending on what version of software you were running. the pilot ones seemed good to me though. we have the new bobcat with joysticks now; i like how i have more insight now into eh. i don't see how they could make the software much better than it is, but there is still no way it could keep up to a manual machine in certain situations. maybe the emphasis should not be on quickness as much as it is on complete control. perfect example: i was loading a semi with big square bales using a bale fork not made for the job on frozen ground with mud on the top and random patches of ice in the mud. boy was i happy to be in my manual machine that day. not to mention the trucker was standing right next to the bales while i was loading; he must have been assuming i had complete control of the situation, which i did thanks to my manual controls, because one wrong move and he woulda got smashed. another thing i find to be true is electric iso controls simply do not give you the control that h pattern does. i see the progression from classic case controls to electric h pattern to be an easy transition, because there would be little difference in drivability between the two. with the bobcat i was a little excited to have access to h pattern controls figuring that i would learn the pattern just for fun, but i tried it once and instantly switched back to iso because i literally couldn't do anything in h pattern.
so kind of good news on the bobcat joystick excessive effort. remove the boot around the base of the joystick, then the joystick works much easier. so that kind of solves that problem. here is the question. bobcat recommends a 2 micron filter on your fuel barrel. does anyone know how to successfully accomplish this in -20 degrees F? I also need to maintain high flow out of the fuel barrel. bobcat also recommends straight number 1 in the winter, but that is obviously not happening.
2 micron filter on fuel barrel will get costly , between filters on doosan and barrel and time spent getting them adds up. I could not get it figured out so l bought different brand. Cat
I still fail to see your point about control? I have run E/H and pilot operated machines in a lot of sticky situations, and never once had an issue, I have had plenty of seat time in mechanical controlled machines and I would much rather have the pilot machine every day of the week over them. I have yet to run a machine that had linkage that could be smoother or more precise then hydraulic pilot controls, its unbeatable. Not saying you're wrong, just in my experience I've found mechanical linkage to be much more troublesome then pilots or E/H.