I've been using a CAT 262B for all sorts of projects on my property in the mountains, but its most critical job is plowing snow. There isn't a flat space on the property, so I've often thought a CTL would significantly reduce the pucker factor of summer projects, but I also don't think tracks are supposed to work on snow. How bad are they, really? This picture is a good illustration of what I use the CAT for in the winter. The arrow points to the top of the driveway. It's not too long, but it's pretty steep. The 262B handles it just fine. Up to about 3' of snow I can just use the pusher. More than that I have to use the bucket to pick up and move the snow. Between the CAT's 10,000lb operating weight and decent tires, I haven't even needed to bother with chains. Do you think I would be able to do this with a CTL?
CTL's work good in the snow until the surface gets polished smooth and becomes icy. At that point you can't do anything with them. You can push more snow with them, as long as you can hook up. The tread design on the CTL matters as well. The zig zag design I found works pretty well, the large pad type, not so much. If you want to update, I would get a cab, high flow machine and a high flow snow blower. If this is all you do with it primarily, I would stay with tires. Cheaper to run, they are working for you, your not making money with it, so whatever productivity increases you may see with a CTL in some conditions, isn't making you more money, so why spend more money on it? Another thing you could do is put snow tires on it, they make a huge difference over dirt tires, you can push more. Just for the record, a 262 weighs around 7500 pounds.
Tires and chains if your really wanting to push snow. I had to help stand up a track skid last year that slid all the way down a hill and ended up against a tree on its side. It wasn't pretty. The track ones I've run pushing snow, are just as KSSS describes, fine until its slick underneath, and really bad if if you have any slopes.
One of the first places I worked for had a wheel skid with aggressive narrow tires for snow plowing but of course the battery wasn't checked and the cold killed it. Had to plow with the track machine and it sucked so much. If the snow is weight in any way the snow packs and the skid went everywhere but where I wanted.
Thank you for the feedback. You're confirming my thoughts: if the most critical job for my skid is pushing snow, then I need a wheeled machine. It's tough because I spend all summer wishing I had the extra stability on the slopes of a tracked machine. And springtime sucks, when the snow is melting I mostly just make a muddy mess when I try to use the skid. But a wheeled machine still can do a lot of work, as long as the ground isn't muddy. I'm not earning a living with this thing, so when it's muddy, I just have an excuse to have a beer, instead!
I don't think you would regret a CTL if you got one. They don't push on ice, but neither do tires. There is more of an issue with the tracked machines on blacktop. On dirt or gravel they are outstanding. I own both a 262 and a 289, the 289 will run circles around the 262 on gravel, unless you get ice buildup, but even then the wheels struggle as well. If you did end up going with a CTL make sure it's a Cat with Z bar or similar tracks. I think the idea that CTL's can't push snow originates with guys running machines such as Kubota or Bobcats with fixed undercarriages and block pattern tracks. Some of those are about as good in the snow as a forklift. Tracks are more expensive to buy and maintain, that's a fact. You might try fluid filling your tires and running OTT's in the summer to improve the stability of a wheeled machine if you do go that route.
get a tracked machine and use studs in the tracks
The track system that the 289 has verse any other CTL undercarriage matters not. The CAT 9 series has a torsion system which has zero influence on how it responds in the snow. The rest of the undercarriage is solid. Now if you want to talk about an ASV or a CAT 7 series (MTL) that uses the ASV undercarriage those do work in snow. The independent rollers and kevlar in the tracks instead of steel cables allows the tracks to individually grip the snow. A 9 series CAT or any other CTL type track (BC, Kubota,) are much the same when it comes to snow. Track tread design when it comes to CTL tracks does matter in snow as was brought up. A chained up wheeled skid steer works way better on ice than does a set of tracks with studs
The torsion system on the -9 series Cats allows 3-4 inches of articulation between the two tracks. How is it possible that has "zero influence" on traction in snow, or anything else for that matter? I do agree that the -7 series with the ASV undercarriage is superior to the -9 series for traction, at the expense of durability.
I don't think the left/right articulation matters when pushing snow. Typically the machine is sitting flat or mostly flat when pushing snow. The loss of traction isn't due to a CTL's ability or lack of ability to articulate like that. A 9 series CAT will be no more effective than any other CTL assuming they both have the same tread design. There are times pushing dirt that the torsion system may be helpful (I personally find it more of a hinderance than help when fine grading) and that system is far from maintenance free. I don't find it helps at all when pushing snow. The ASV system pushing snow is probable the one thing that it absolutely excels at. Certainly durability is an issue outside of snow or topsoil, which is why I didn't suggest it to the OP. If your making money with it and you factor in the cost of upkeep into your pricing is one thing. Having to kick out 8K or whatever they are now to go through those undercarriages would be really hard to swallow as a home owner.
The torsion system isn't much for grading, that's for sure. Or loading a high sided dump truck. I see the point about the -9 series Cats versus fixed undercarriage machines on level ground. I frequently deal with deep heavy snow doing things like breaking roads back to cabins and pushing piles back. I can follow the piles down the bank, into the swamp, whatever and not worry about getting back out. Not so with my 262. At least between the machines I have currently and have had in the past the 289D is an animal when it comes to breaking through heavy piles and snow pack.
What's snow?
A CTL will push snow and lots of it with the right operator the strait bar tracks that come on Cats now have far more snow traction than the old c blocks they used to come with Bridgestone does make snow tracks The snow your pushing in your pic would be no challenge you can see from your tire tracks there would be plenty of grip
Just don't get the Tweel's (airless tires) for snow. They put a set on our Cat skid steer at the mine and it was absolutely useless. Even laced with sheet metal screws the old bald tires we took off were better. They took them off and bought pneumatic tires again.
^^^^^ I second that. I had a Bobcat with solids. The only good thing about those tires is that they can't go flat . . .
Years ago I bought a set of Mclaren airless tires. Couldn't do anything with the machine when it wasn't on asphalt or concrete. I still have them for demo jobs, but thats it. I spent like $3k for those tires and had to turn around and buy another set of pneumatics. lesson learned.
Same here. Bought a set for an 863 however I got rid of the tires with the machine and bought a CTL.
We run something like this on the Bobcat in winter, Makes a big difference. Take them off in summer as they wear fast on pavement. A power angle blade makes a difference to. A box is great for parking lots, but sucks on a road way.
I run those tracks all year. They wear great for me, but I don't spend much time on blacktop.
Our machine does a lot of milling, and sweeping. If I am shouldering a couple miles of road, it's right there with me. They only got a year and a half out of the tracks that came on it.
What do you run on asphalt? Are there tracks designed specifically for that?
Tracks are not that hard to change. Have 2 sets. It is the same as having a set of snow tire for the car.
Just the ones that come on it I think the ones on the machine might be wider, these are more like the ones on the excavator, same tread though. We have 2 other Bobcats with tires, but I think the talk is to get another one with tracks this summer. The guys running them like how smooth they are. No idea what model they are. I don't run them, and I don't want to run them. I know the oldest and smallest one has the foot controls for the bucket, which I hate. The other 2 run everything at your hands. The one with the tires might have the option to still run foot controls, but not sure. This style of track was useless in the snow, so they ended up with the winter tracks. They plow a lot of mall side walks with them. They do have a snow blower that works quite well, but I guess the angle blades are faster.
Yeah, they do have 2 sets. They have winters for the wheeled Bobcats as well. A lot of guys scoff at the expense of winter tires, but if you do a lot of plowing, they are not long paying for themselves. There are winter tires for 15 loaders, from an L45 Volvo up to a 180 Volvo. They hired a guy this winter that plowed snow for 30 years, and had never ran a loader with winter tires, and he was shocked at how much of a difference they made. Plus they last forever. The tires on my L70 are the first set they bought Helio or something like that Not my loader, but same tread. Anyway they are 13 years old, and not half worn out.
Put a set of studs in rear tires and could push snow no problem. Picture tells how well it can push. Simon C
I use both wheel and a track machne for snow removal. I bought a box of I grip carbide screw in studs and they work pretty good. Key was to get them long enough to they don't rip out of the track. Prob. have 60 hours on the machine of snow removal, some mulching and some road grading and 90% of the studs I put in are still in place. Minutes to install and minutes to take out if need be.
This style of track is very popular with the farmer's I see around here with CTL's. Seldom used on pavement except small areas of feed lots which they excel working in. Never have seen any with worn out myself so cannot attest to longevity but CTL's I've delivered to large scale operations several years ago still sport the original tracks.
Try the following test with a wheeled machine (any tire brand you wish) Drive thru a field that has 3 to 4ft deep snow Now try the same test with a tracked machine of your choice (track pattern is key for this one) The wheeled machine will most likely spin out in a short distance and the tracked machine will most likely just float across the snow just my 2 cents of experience with 1000s of hours on both type of machines
Wading deep snow and plowing are 2 different traction issues. I can drive through miles of snow in the loader with the bucket off the ground. As soon as I start plowing, and unless it's really mild out, it's gonna get slippery. Our tracked Bobcat will hardly move on a plowed surface with the original tracks. The wheeled machines have better traction in this situation regardless of tread until you go with a winter track on the track machine.
If you have got an honest 4 feet of snow you are going to be wallowing around getting the track loader stuck too. 10,000lb CTL's don't just "float" over snow . . . lol Unless you have a first generation Cat 277, then it might . . .
If you have thousands of hours on each, you know that when it comes to "pushing" snow that comparison is not based in reality.